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Taxes-Who Pays And Why The Wealthy Should Pay More

21 Oct
Seal of the Internal Revenue Service

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Lately I’ve been discussing the question of raising taxes on the rich with a conservative aquaintance of mine. Several of the statements made are I think worth discussing in detail so I have here placed the statement and my reply to it. Should the wealthy pay more taxes than they are? Is it fair?

The wealthy already pay MOST of the taxes in this
country. 31 – 40% is what is reported paid by the top 1% of wealthy. 
Actually the top 1% pay more like 50.14% of the
income taxes

the top 5% pay 70% of all the taxes in this
country.
Not too far off. In 08 the top 5% paid 56% so 56-70. Somewhere in
there. But the top 20% do pay 80% of the taxes.

But
that isn’t the point. These figures are deceptive because it isn’t about what
percentage of the taxes are paid by what group. It’s about what percentage of
your income you pay in taxes. The rate for a 10 million dollar income 22+% is
lower than the rate for a 1 million dollar income, 25+%  The
more you make, the more they take?
Doesn’t seem as progressive now does it?

The
more of the money invested in Low rate and tax free investments, the lower the
total rate for that income goes. And
the more of that money invested in foreign companies, the less that gets
invested in America. A guy like Warren Buffett pays a total tax rate of around 17.4%
of his total income, although on paper; since he pays income tax only on his
salary, he is paying the usual 25%.  This
really isn’t rocket science. The argument that his capital gains are taxed
twice, once as corporate and again as personal income for a 30% total tax is
ridiculous.

As
one of the republicans with the people’s interest at heart; Mitt Romney says,”Corporations
are people too.” Therefore taxes paid by a corporation cannot be counted as
taxes paid by Warren Buffett. The corporation is a separate entity. A different
person. Seems like whenever Republicans want to show why they shouldn’t pay
more taxes they say they and their corporation are one. But when it comes to
getting allowances and special treatment, suddenly the corporation is a
“separate” person entitled to all the benefits of any other individual.

“The nation’s top 400 taxpayers paid on average,
the IRS
reports, just 18.11
percent of their incomes in tax in 2008, about what Buffett paid last year. A
tenth of Americans making between $10,000 and $20,000,
notes the Center
for American Progress, pay taxes at higher rates than a quarter of our
millionaire earners.

Now
if you don’t see the inequity, then I give up.

The
biggest complaint isn’t that the wealthy are wealthy. It’ what they decided to
do with that wealth that everyone is so pissed about.

Taking
that money back in the form of taxes is solely due to their lack of patriotism
in taking the money and the jobs out of the economy. Obama didn’t lose
your job. Bush and Reagan and the rest of the Republicans who failed to do
their duty as Americans did.

No
one wants to charge a 200k a year man 50% of his income but a guy making a
million? Tax that guy.

But
more importantly we want to see the end of the Bush tax cuts. We want these
Uber-wealthy to pay the same tax rate on their investments that they pay on
earned income.  So, Warren Buffett would
pay the usual 25% on his $100,000.00 annual salary from his corporation. Then
he would pay 25% on his investment income. And his corporation would pay 25% on
that investment income because they are a separate person/entity. If you want
to do corporate investing and trading, you have to pay the price. Higher taxes.
And why should that be a problem for these folks? They don’t work for the money;
it’s all done over the phone or computer. If taxing them higher on money they
did nothing to earn will give the average working man a break, I say it’s the
right thing to do. And that is the big difference between you and me where taxes
are concerned. You feel it’s ok for the rich to get breaks on some types of
income because…..I don’t know…because their rich?  And I feel that the rich are responsible for
caring for the poor and paying higher taxes is just one way to force them to do
something they will never do on their own. Now don’t get me wrong. I am not
saying that all of this extra revenue from taxes is going right out to the
poor. Obama isn’t that caring but I am saying that no matter how the government
uses the money, the rich still need to pay the same as everyone else on all of
their income, well actually a little more since their tax rate is a little
higher. It’s a progressive system remember? The more you make, the more we
take.

Sounded
like a good idea when you were talking about taking more food out of the mouths
of the less fortunate huh? Not so good now that it means taking more away from
your wealthy Tea Party Masters.

And
raising taxes on the wealthy won’t put them out of business. It will make them
work harder to make more money and that attempt will increase the number of
jobs.

If a
man has so much money that he doesn’t need to work, then not work is what he
will do.

Traditionally
nations in need of money get that money by increasing the taxes on their
wealthiest citizens. Because they are the only ones who can give up enough to
make a difference and still be drowning in what’s left.

So
unless you are making a million or more, I don’t understand your defense of
these

People like you, who pay NO taxes aren’t even in
the calculations.
You see you are wrong again. People like me do
enter the calculations. I am one of the millions of Americans who worked for 35
or 40 years for low pay so your friends could make their billions. I am one of
the people who actually did the work that they got paid for. And I am one of
the many people who have paid into Social Security all of my working life only
to be told, when medical conditions forced me to stop working that I could go
to hell and wait until they get around to “APPROVING” my disability pension. I
have lost almost everything I owned waiting for that pension I worked so hard
for and paid so much for. I lost my car and my apartment. I’ve had to sell
everything of real or sentimental value to me including the one remaining item
of jewelry that belonged to my mother and that I gave her as a five year old. I
have had to give away my two 11 year old dogs that I have had since they were
puppies and who never left my side as long as I wasn’t working. I have had to
beg, borrow, and borrow and beg. I’ve had to allow my wife to move to her
relatives house and work as their domestic. That was their price for keeping us
off the streets.                 I though,
must live elsewhere so that my two daughters can stay with their mother. All of
this after 35 years of work and taxes. And after two years, I still wait for my
Soc Sec “Insurance”.

So
think again before you start accusing people of not being tax payers. If you
are in as bad a shape as you say you are, then you aren’t paying taxes either.

And
if you are paying taxes, then quit bitching. There are a lot of people a
lot worse off than you. Much worse off. The poorest people in this country are
literally starving to death.
Their children die of disease. They have no electric, telephone, heat, and
often they still have outdoor plumbing and must walk and carry water. They
would give almost anything to be able to pay their fair share of the taxes. So
think again before you complain.

And
the reason there are so many low income families who don’t pay taxes is that
your Republican Tycoons don’t pay them enough money to hit even the lowest of
the paying tax brackets.

I
hear the way you talk about poor people who pay no taxes and I would suggest
that if you want more people to pay taxes, you have to first pay them a decent
wage to pay taxes from and with.

As to your assertion that businesses small and
large pay double taxes.
You see? There you go again. Insulting my
intelligence. Let’s reiterate. I did finish High School. I would guess that you
have a degree but God knows what names you might call me for being wrong about
that. It’s usually college grads. who display that Elitist attitude that you
do. I hear it in your typing. “Oh.  No
degree? Well the servants entrance is around back” Aside to the butler, “Make
sure he’s clean James and bug free.”
“Too poor to pay taxes eh? Must be a lazy slob not deserving my
attention”

Not
all College Grads to be sure. A lot of liberal grads are even human. It’s the
wealthy, powerful, ones or those they have convinced to work for them. Rather
the way Dracula convinced Renfield to work for him. The promise of immortality
and brotherhood with Dracula. But once Dracula had gotten what he wanted from
Renfield and he was no longer needed. Dracula killed him. No reward as I told
John Boehner when I wrote to him. The wealthy republicans and Tea Party leaders
are never going to let the like of you into their club. They are notoriously
resistant to new members and always have been. They’ll just use you and throw
you away with the trash.

I
also owned my own small business for ten years. Ooops, must have missed that
huh? I did and so I know that what you are referring to is only true if you are
incorporated. Incorporation is a personal choice usually made by wealthy people
to avoid personal responsibility for the things they do as a corporation.
Limited liability they call it.

Real
small businesses are not corporations and the business and the owner are treated
as one entity. They pay as one, just once. Not double. But they do take
responsibility for their acts.

Guess
being part of corporate America didn’t really prepare you for the real America
huh?

As
for the 200k or 1 million level for tax increases. I really don’t know the
answer to that one. I would have to see some detailed figures and projections
before making that choice. But I have to say, 200k seems pretty wealthy when
you only take in 12 k or 20k for that matter. Again I don’t know the answer. It
isn’t my wish to do harm to anyone but without the numbers I don’t know if a
200k house would be severely hurt by the increase. Sorry.

One of the places the ‘wealthy’ deter
their funds to in order to avoid paying the corrupt government is CHARITABLE
organizations. This new BO law will remove that clause. So all you bleeding
hearts will watch poor and needy people suffer even more without charitable
contributions. BO wants the ‘wealthy’ to pay taxes on charitable contributions.
Why donate then?

Oh
Baby, you really stepped in it now. Why donate? If you have to ask………………………

I
feel kind of dumb telling you this. Most of us learned it in Kindergarten.

We
aren’t supposed to give to the poor because the government will pay us to do
it. The fact that the government ever felt the need to do so is a stain and shame
on the nation.

We
are supposed to give out of love for our neighbors (neighbors in the larger
sense). I would make two points at this juncture.

a)    If you speak
to the chairman of any charitable organization, I am sure you will find that
they are constantly amazed at the number of poor people who donate to help the
poor. And how few wealthy.

b)   Donations to
charity are not impressive. They do it because the government pays them to do
so and the amounts they donate, while seemingly large to the 12K man are not
much to a 200K man who may well (I said may) be donating so as to drop to a
lower tax bracket. A 500K man notices the loss even less. And the 1 million man
doesn’t even think about it. His donations are usually set up to happen
automatically, with all the emotion of a stone.

In
addition to that, large numbers of the wealthy are church goers. And if you
belong to a church and you have money, it looks good to make donations to
charity.

Luke
21

Young’s Literal Translation (YLT)

Luke
21

1And having looked up, he saw those who did cast their gifts
to the treasury — rich men,

2and he saw also a certain poor widow casting there two
mites,

3and he said, `Truly I say to you, that this poor widow did
cast in more than all;

4for all these out of their superabundance did cast into the
gifts to God, but this one out of her want, all the living that she had, did
cast in.’

Also.
No self respecting wealthy Republican is going to donate to charity just to
avoid taxes (except where their tax bracket will drop) Donating to charity to
avoid paying taxes is like throwing the whole chicken away to avoid giving the
local cop a wing. There is no logic to giving away money to save on taxes.

I
don’t know how much the wealthy are sitting on but it really doesn’t matter. I
realize that just taxing the wealthy on all of their money isn’t going to pay
off the deficit. But like the guy said when the bus load of lawyers went off
the road and exploded. “Well, it’s a good start”

It
will take a lot more than just tax increases. It will require spending cuts. I
guess we could argue over what should be cut etc. but let’s just say that cuts
need to be made and it probably wouldn’t hurt to try to slim some gov’t
programs down to a leaner configuration. Everything should be open to scrutiny
for efficiency. The government wastes a lot of money and always has. Laziness,
corruption, apathy have all played a roll.

Fact. You’re being lied to because they know you
do not know the facts.
Oh. No doubt. The government lies to us all on a
daily basis. Yeh, I know you thought I was an Obama groupie.  Obama is nearly as far right as a Republican
from my perch on the political scale. I’m so liberal; I make Obama Look like
Joe McCarthy. No it’s just that I see him as the lesser of two evils. I wish
the democrats had a candidate with the backbone to stand up and fight for the
people. Someone who would shut the wealthy Republicans and their puppet, The
House down and make them toe the line.

Obama
isn’t my first choice. I don’t really have a first choice. All of the choices I
see run between 2nd and 22nd choice. I will vote for
Obama but only because of the actions of the Tea Party and the Republican
House.

This is why: They have scared me
to my core.

14th amendment: section 4

“The validity of the public debt of the United States, authorized by law, including debts incurred for payment of pensions and bounties for services in suppressing insurrection or rebellion, shall not be questioned.”

So, all debts
incurred by the government are valid and must be paid. Because the Republican
Congress has done everything possible to prevent that, the President has a
clear duty to invoke that amendment and override Congress as part of his vow to
preserve, protect, and defend the Constitution of the United States, which oath includes by inference that
the President has a duty to uphold the provisions thereof.

President Obama
was therefore under obligation to invoke the 14th amendment and his failure to
do so bring serious questions as to his courage under fire.

The
willful act of stonewalling everything the President brings before them for the
express and publicly stated purpose of ending his administration and their
intentional plot to force the shutdown of the government meets all of the
definitions of the word

TREASON the
definition of which is as follows:

trea·son  (from
Dictionary.com)

[tree-zuhn] Show IPA

noun

1. “the offense of acting to overthrow one’s government
or to harm or kill its sovereign.”

2. “a violation of allegiance to one’s sovereign or to
one’s state.”

3. “the betrayal of a trust or confidence; breach of
faith; treachery.”

“Treason is any attempt to overthrow the
government or impair the well-being of a state to which one owes allegiance;
the crime of giving aid or comfort to the enemies of one’s government.”

“Sedition is any act, writing, speech, etc.,
directed unlawfully against state authority, the government, or constitution,
or calculated to bring it into contempt or to incite others to hostility, ill
will or disaffection”

I think both treason and sedition could easily be applied to
the Houses actions over the past two years.

I know you’ll say that the Congress can’t be prosecuted for
doing their job but that is just the point. They have failed to even attempt to
do their job and have instead carried out a well planned Conspiracy to cause
our country to go under financially, to cause the downfall of the current
government by the illegal means I have detailed and to seize power for their
Fascist Fundamentalist Theocracy.

One might even be tempted to argue that they are carrying out
acts of Genocide against the American people by purposely moving vast sums of
money out of the economy, spiriting away millions of American jobs to foreign
countries and bring the poor to the brink of if not over the brink of
starvation, homelessness and disease.

So, Republican; No. there greed is too obvious and so are the
insane lies they tell.  I mean, look, 12
years ago they were saying. Give us tax cuts and we will use that money to
invest in America, create jobs and build the economy. They failed to keep that
promise. That’s why everyone is so upset about the rich paying more taxes
again.

The American people feel like Charlie Brown when Lucy says,
“Come on Charlie Brown. Kick the football. I won’t pull the ball away this time
Charlie Brown. I promise I won’t.

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Posted by on October 21, 2011 in freedom of speech, politics, taxes

 

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